Sometimes I hate telling someone I’m a Christian.
Whether the person has had a bad experience with Christianity, or if I know they’re an atheist and we’ll be launched into a great debate.
It is equally unpleasant when you tell someone you’re a Christian and it’s “Me too! What denomination are you?” Like, can we not just celebrate our mutual faith in Christ? Do we have to figure out our differences and debate right away?
I guess it seems I hate debating. But that’s not entirely true. I actually really appreciate a respectful conversation filled with nuggets to make you think, question and deepen your beliefs. But those types of convos rarely happen outside of a scholastic setting.
So how can I set up my opening statement for a potentially heated debate?
I’m reminded of Paul in First Corinthians when he’s reprimanding everyone for taking sides. Almost how we have… Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal. We even have non-Denominational, which happens to be another denomination 🤔
What about YOU? What do you believe? And what would you respond if you knew the person voicing the question had been burned by a “Christian”? Or had been raised in a Christian home but, as life would have it, wants nothing to do with Christianity ever again?
What if the person asking was of similar faith, like a Mormon or Jehovah’s Witness?
I have come up with my answer:
I believe the Bible is the written Word of God.
Why am I more convicted and humbled saying I believe the Bible is the Word of God than just saying I’m a Christian?
Maybe because being a Christian can mean a whole lot of different things to each person 🤷♀️
And – the actually WORDS of GOD?! Holy cow! 🐄 I should be reading and memorizing and referencing and writing and pouring myself into His Word every day IF that’s what I truly believe.
And, I do believe that.
#myopeningstatement #thegreatdebate
Millennial MSG 
Bravo!
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So, which parts should be taken literally, which should be taken metaphorically and which should be ignored altogether? Each Christian has their version of what they claim is the “written word of God.” How is one to know that your version is the correct one?
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Hi! Great comment!
Bible scholars have developed techniques (like hermeneutics and exegesis) to help interpret Scripture accurately. But, like you said, people can have their own “version.” Disagreements and differing opinions are inevitable.
The problem, however, ultimately lies not with Scripture but ourselves.
I like how theologian Wayne Grudem explains the clarity of Scripture: the Bible is written in such a way that its teachings are able to be understood by all who will read it seeking God’s help and being willing to follow it.
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Bible scholars come up with contradictory answers using those techniques. Why is that? And if you all claim that the holy spirit guides you, as every apologist I’ve seen does, why are disagreements and differing opinions “inevitable”? They shouldn’t be at all, correct if the source is the same?
Many Christians make the claim that it is humans at fault not the bible and not their god. That is blaming the victim since your god, if omnipotent and omniscient, should have no problem at all in making itself clear.
Grudem makes quite an excuse, blaming the victim and making a no true scotsman fallacy argument e.g. that only those who agree with him are those who are “really” seeking God’s help and be willing to follow it. I’ve had Christians make that excuse to me for years, insisting that I wasn’t “sincere” enough when I prayed to this god when I was losing my faith.
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I’m curious if there are specific passages that you find most Christians can’t agree on or if you’re primarily referring to the different denominations within Christianity?
I feel like God makes things pretty clear in the Bible, at least clear enough to know and be able to talk about it. But it may be important to note that He is also incomprehensible. I could know a lot about something, but I won’t know that thing exhaustively (though I can know it truly).
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Christians disagree on what verses to take as literal, metaphor or to ignore all together since they are inconvenient. This can be individuals or denominations. Every Christian has what amounts to a personal magic decoder ring when it comes to what they claim that their god “really” wants/said. For example, are the creation stories in Genesis to be taken literally or not? Should Christians follow the laws in the OT or not? Should Revelation be taken as prophecy? literal, partly literal, or is it a story only about the Roman Empire? Are people damned for not being born in the right place at the right time or not? I can go on but I’ll stop here for now.
Each Christian claims that their god supports their version “clearly”, so how are we to know which of you has the right answer, if any?
And claims of your god being “incomprehensible” only happen when you don’t like what the bible says and want to pretend it doesn’t say what it does. And no, you can’t know something truly in this case, since again, all of you make the same claim with no evidence that your version is the true one. You know only the version you’ve made up “truly”.
The bible says that baptized believers in Christ as savior can heal people of injury and sickness (Mark 16 and James 5). Can you?
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Even with God being incomprehensible; I research, question, pray and reach out to others when there is a passage that might not sit well with me. I don’t usually chalk it up to “well, can’t understand it all so 🤷♀️”
In regards to your first two paragraphs and even your final question, I would love to chat with someone about their interpretations and how they may differ from mine. Considering none of those topics are necessary for salvation, different “versions” can be fun to debate and explore with others.
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Again, you only choose to call your god “incomprehensible” when you want to avoid dealing with what your god supposedly commands. You , like all Christians, claim to research, question and pray, to get answers and you all get different answers. Why would this be?
All of those issues do influence “salvation”. Christians also vary on what salvation entails and requires. “For example, are the creation stories in Genesis to be taken literally or not? Should Christians follow the laws in the OT or not? Should Revelation be taken as prophecy? literal, partly literal, or is it a story only about the Roman Empire? Are people damned for not being born in the right place at the right time or not?”
We have this underlined in what JC says in Matthew 5. Do you need to follow the laws in the bible or not to be saved? Again, which version is the right one or are all of you damned just like your bible claims anyone who doesn’t believe in this god is?
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Hi again 🙂
Your Qs are worded in such a way that it sounds like you have already come up with the answers you want. At this point, I fear we are wasting both of our time.
But thank you for taking the time to comment so extensively on this post!
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That is untrue, MM, you seem to have invented that excuse so you can ignore my questions. That is not honest.
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here are my questions again. Please show how they indicate I have already come up with the answers I supposed “want”. You made the accusation. I am asking you to support it.
“You , like all Christians, claim to research, question and pray, to get answers and you all get different answers. Why would this be?”
“For example, are the creation stories in Genesis to be taken literally or not?”
“Should Christians follow the laws in the OT or not?”
” Should Revelation be taken as prophecy? literal, partly literal, or is it a story only about the Roman Empire?”
“Are people damned for not being born in the right place at the right time or not?”
“Do you need to follow the laws in the bible or not to be saved?”
“Again, which version is the right one or are all of you damned just like your bible claims anyone who doesn’t believe in this god is?”
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If we must continue this back-and-forth Q&A, so be it. Not that I was trying to find an excuse to not answer you, but working 60 hour weeks and being a Mama to three kids; I don’t have much downtime 😅 It also felt like your onslaught of Qs was to prove some kind of hidden agenda, not to hear my thoughts 🤷♀️ Thank you for breaking up your questions though, that makes it easier.
Let me first reiterate that I have yet to call my God incomprehensible because of something I read that I don’t agree with or don’t want to follow. You have mentioned that twice now so I want to clarify that when I call my God incomprehensible; I think of His glory, holiness and power more so than His decrees that others may have a hard time accepting. Does that make sense?
Why do Christians find more than one answer? Because there probably is more than one answer. This is a difficult Q to answer if you don’t have a specific passage you’re referring to.
“Creation stories” Not sure if you are referring to when the world was created or after creation up to Jesus’ birth, but either way: literally.
“OT Laws” For me personally, when Jesus says in the NT that all laws can be broken down into two commandments; I take it we can follow those two and it will cover a multitude of laws. LMK if you need me to expand.
“Revelation” I am assuming you are talking about the last book in the Bible, not the prophets in the OT. That book has highly symbolic language. I take it as a prophetic book.
“Damned for being born” Are you referencing election and reprobation? Then, yes, people are.
“Follow laws to be saved” Not necessarily, but being a Christian kind of promotes one to follow the laws out of desire rather than force.
Can you rephrase your last Q? 🤔
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No hidden agenda. You made this claim “I believe the Bible is the written Word of God.” And I’m curious to see how you explain this as an opening for a discussion. As for your responses, you may make them or not. No one is forcing you, but I will call out any excuses. If you don’t have time, then that’s fine.
To claim that you think of this god only about his holiness and power, rather than his decrees is rather odd. Christians claim that they get their morals and how to act from this god. They then disagree on what of the “decrees” that this god wants them to follow. Your words do make sense since many Christians have claimed the same thing to me, in order to avoid the hard questions on what they believe. It’s easy to make a vague god since then you don’t have to worry about what this god is reported to have done and to require in your bible. A lot of Christians have found this to be what they need to have a religion that they can accept. It’s also often shrouded in the claims of “sophisticated theology” where Christians yet again invent new interpretations about what their god wants and is.
There is no sign of “more than one answer”. The complete opposite is true since lots of these claimed answers are directly contradictory e.g. is there free will or predestination?
There are two contradictory creation stories: Genesis 1 -Genesis 2:1-4 and Genesis 2:5-25. (this is my favorite bible website: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=NRSV and if you don’t like the NRSV version you can always choose another. ) So, how can they both be taken literally if they don’t match up?
You are correct when you say “for me personally” because every Christian makes up their religion that way. Now for Matthew 22 “37 He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”” So, all of the laws are to be followed per JC here and in Matthew 5. That means that somehow these commandments fit under those two: “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death”; “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death”; “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God.”; “Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death”
Now, it seems that the first commandment is to love this god, which means obeying it, yes? And then one has to know how to obey, thus the laws.
Revelation does have quite the language. Some Christians claim it is literal; some don’t. I have found that a lot of Christians want to claim that genesis and the cruxifiction story have to be literal but that Revelation *must* be metaphor, even though it makes no more ridiculous claims than the first two.
Yep, damned for being born in the wrong place and wrong time. I’m talking about that. Now, election is generally claimed by some Christians who want to claim predestination and that they and those like them are the chosen ones. In that there are several disagreeing sects like this, one has to wonder who has the right answer since they both can’t. Some claim it is conditional, some claim it isn’t. So, this god creates humans and damns them through no fault of their own. How is this fair or just? And which is it, are people elect or can they reject this god? Paul says that this god makes people unable to accept it, so they have no choice but to reject this god. I do find the idea of reprobation curious since this god supposedly makes people do horrible things after they reject it. I’ve rejected it and this god has done nothing at all.
There is nothing to show being a Christian makes anyone more likely to follow laws than anyone else, not even the laws that this god supposedly gave. You say that one doesn’t need to follow the laws “necessarily”. Where do you get that part?
“Again, which version is the right one or are all of you damned just like your bible claims anyone who doesn’t believe in this god is?” aka Which Christianity is the true one? How can you tell who is damned and who isn’t? I would suspect that you may respond with the claim that it is up to this god, which would beg the question: why did it bother with all of these laws?
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I think a lot of Christians need to be asking the questions you have. So kudos to you!
Just reading my Bible this morning, there was is a verse that some use to prove that anyone can speak in tongues (Jude 20). However one could ask does “praying in the Holy Spirit” only mean praying in tongues? Or could it mean in conformity to / being led by / in the power of the Holy Spirit? I can’t answer that 💯 certain even right now. Because I can’t, does that mean I’m not “saved”? Does it mean the Bible is contradictory here?
I’d like to dive into your example of a contradiction (freewill and predestination) if that is something you feel is contradictory. Lmk.
You brought up a great example in Genesis! My thoughts: The second account of male/female creation is intended to be more detailed and specific, whereas the first account was more of an outline of the whole.
When you love someone, what do you do? Hang out with them, probably. Try to get to know them more and more. How would I do that if I love God? For one, read the Bible. Through that, I would learn not just the laws of the OT, but the guide to living a life that glorifies Him.
I have to end this for tonight. Will respond to the second part soon.
I’d like to note that my preferred translation is the ESV since it is one of the most closely translated from the original text 👍
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I think defining election and reprobation will help answer your Qs. I love how Wayne Grudem explains it.
Election is an act of God before creation in which He chooses some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of His sovereign good pleasure.
Reprobation is the sovereign decision of God before creation to pass over some persons, in sorrow deciding not to save them, and to punish them for their sins, and thereby to manifest His justice.
Answering if reprobation is fair or just… every person as a sinner deserves condemnation so, though difficult to accept, it is certainly fair and just. These doctrines showcase God’s power, wrath, justice and mercy in a way that could not otherwise be demonstrated.
Ultimately, these doctrines should result in Christians being so incredibly humbled before God. It makes us realize that we have no claim on God’s grace whatsoever. Our salvation is totally due to grace alone. The only appropriate response is to give God eternal praise.
1 Cor. 10:23 is where Paul talks about how one could technically do anything (i.e. disobey the laws), but not everything is beneficial. Romans 14 is another great example of this.
Which Christianity is the true one… that is exactly why my blog responds “the Bible is true.” I hold fast to what the Bible says. I am always down to challenge my interpretations because I have no fear in what may be discovered. I don’t believe anyone could find something in the Bible to prove it to be false. With that, if a Bible-believing Christian didn’t believe in reprobation (for example); I don’t think that would hinder them from being saved. Though I would disagree with them and would be willing to discuss their points of view, the belief in this doctrine isn’t a requirement for salvation in my opinion.
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MM, I was a Presbyterian so I know about election and reprobation and predestination and all of the stuff that other Christians think is nonsense.
All you have is a god of the “oriental potentate” variety. You want to claim that anything it does is good for the simply reason that it is god. That’s nothing more than a might equals right morality. We have a god acting on a whim, nothing more.
Then we have reprobation that a god is sad that this god chose to damn some people when it didn’t have to. No one made it damn anyone, it chose to do so. And there is nothing “fair and just” about any of this. If you think so, I really feel sorry for any kids you might have. Fair and just means equal treatment not based on the favoritism of some being.
You need to tell yourself it is fair and just because all of the other horrible things this god did depend on that you insist to yourself that this god is good. Again, all you are is a sycophant apologizing for a imaginary tyrant, insisting that it should be given eternal praise for not being horrible to *you*. If you didn’t think you were elect, then I suspect you might have a problem with being damned through no fault of your own.
That you and no other Christian can show that the bible is true, is a problem for you. You tell yourself that you and only you know what the bible says “truly”. There is nothing to show that you are interested in changing your interpretations because there is nothing you would accept beyond yourself. You claim you don’t elieve that anyone has found anything in the bible to be false, but they have. What happens is that you ignore it because you need the bible to be true. Plenty of Christians don’t believe in reprobation and election. You don’t think that would hinder them from being saved. You have made up what you want to be important to salvation.
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“Sycophant” #wordoftheday
You mentioned God acts on a whim. Would it be considered a “whim” if His choices (e.g. this human for grace/this one for justice) were based on what would result in greater glory for Him? What better way to showcase His holiness and wrath than the doctrine of reprobation?
I never said I couldn’t prove the Bible is true. What are you having trouble accepting as truth? Doctrines that don’t sit well with you? Passages that could potentially be interpreted differently by different people?
“nothing you would accept anything beyond yourself” What exactly does this mean? You have no idea how I respond to someone telling me their interpretation of a passage. I have been respectful and open to hearing your side of things. What makes you think I would treat someone who actually agrees with the foundations of my faith any differently?
People have found things false in the Bible, you say. Could you provide some examples? I would love to look into this, not even for argument just personal edification.
Lastly, you say I have made up what is important for salvation. How do you come to this conclusion? Paul says to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead to be saved. There isn’t a footnote saying “also must believe in election and reprobation.”
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Yep, it would be considered a whim if this god does things just to make itself feel better. What a silly god to need “greater glory”. Who is it impressing? The doctrine of reprobation is nothing more than a god taking a temper tantrum because it is ignored by a human. It’s not impressive at all.
So do prove the bible is true. Show that your version of your bible is supported by facts. In that Christians don’t agree on what doctrines are what this god wants, and that Christians make up their own interpretation of the bible, contradicting each other, there is no reason to think any of you have any better claim to the “truth” than the next or that your claims are true at all.
“There is nothing to show that you are interested in changing your interpretations because there is nothing you would accept beyond yourself.” I do know your response to someone telling you their interpretation of a passage. It’s the same as any Christians, that yours is the only right way. You say you can prove your version correct, which tells me that you wouldn’t consider someone else’s version to be true over your own.
Another thing that tells me this is that you have made the claim that “ I don’t believe anyone could find something in the Bible to prove it to be false.” Here again I see that you are sure that you alone are correct. As for examples of things that are false in the bible: the claims about Tyre in Isaiah 23. It never happened. More claims about Tyre in Ezekiel. They never happened. Tyre is still a thriving city and we know its history thanks to the archaeological digs around it. There is no evidence of a worldwide flood. If the bible’s claims were right, we’d see one large flood deposit. We don’t. The exodus have no evidence for it, not one latrine found, not one quail bone, for supposedly 600,000 man plus women, children and their animals wandering around an area half the size of Pennsylvania. Egypt suffered no loss of their army nor of their first born. The Canaanites were not destroyed as is claimed in Deuteronomy. The bible claims that pi equals 3 when describing on how a cauldron is built, which would make the cauldron missing quite a bit of its wall. The bible falsely claims that the sky is a solid with lights on it. The bible says that the earth is like clay under a seal, flat. The bible says that hail and snow are in magical storehouses. Then we have the false promises, like this god’s promise that the Jews won’t be disturbed in their “own place” ever again (2 Samuel 7), and this “ 12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it.”
Now, you may reply that I’m not “interpreting” these correctly, that they are “really” metaphors and not declarations of fact, or they were just approximations, etc. This is my point that Christians do not agree on what the bible says.
And yes, I did say that you have made up what you want to be important for salvation. Many Christians have done this, by declaring that their version is the way people are saved. Paul does say what you’ve quoted. Jesus says that one must take care of the sick and injured and poor, give up all you have to follow him, as well as accept him as savior. You’re right, there is no footnote in the bible, but Christians give plenty of footnotes when they claim that only a certain type of baptism works for salvation, only a certain way of believing in what Jesus is (man, or god or some combination) works for salvation, only certain ways to pray gets salvation, etc. Here’s where Christians are talking about how the resurrection could be taken less literally: https://www.ncronline.org/news/theology/can-you-question-resurrection-and-still-be-christian
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Sorry for the late response! #retailworker #holidayseason #mama #wife #etc
May go without saying, but proof for me may not prove to be proof for you.
In regards to the Bible being true…
Written over a period of 1500 years, on three continents, by more than forty authors.
What is the likelihood of all that time elapsing with all those “cooks in the kitchen” for a Book to result that flows together so succinctly and effortlessly? The likelihood is 0%, IMHO. Unless, of course, it truly is the inspired Word of God.
JP Moreland, another one of my fav theologians, produced a very small book called “Blind Faith or Intelligent Commitment?” Good, quick read if you’re interested.
You appear to know many different interpretations Christians hold to. I wonder, if you were someone who held the Bible to be true, what your interpretations would be?
Some of the objections you mentioned about the inerrancy of Scripture are common, others I had never considered. I did a bit of research (in the limited time my kids allow – LOL) and the objections ended up falling flat. I could go through each one you brought up, but I can’t think of a better waste of time… if I could answer your objections to your intellectual satisfaction, would you commit your life to Jesus Christ right now? You would probably respond, “no.” So it would seem the real issue is not that of resolving your questions, but rather your reluctance of committing your life to Someone. So then I would ask, why don’t you want to commit?
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No problem at all. I was busy myself in showing art at an Christmas gift show. And having worked retail, that’s just a misery for scheduling isn’t it?
No one gets to have their own reality. The fact that theists can’t agree on what their god is, what it wants, how to worship it, demonstrates that there is no reason to assume this religion is based on reality.
Yep, the bible was indeed written over a very long time with a lot of different people. So? And I’ve read the bible, and I know it doesn’t “that flows together so succinctly and effortlessly”. That is an outright falsehood. The authors of the bible repeatedly contradict each other, they make false claims, and the Jews would indeed agree with me that Christians have mangled the Old Testament in their desperate need for evidence that their messiah is real.
Not sure, but I think you’ve gotten the book title wrong. I can find no mention of it on the internet. I’ve found Moreland to be a very poor apologist. He ignores the bible when it disagrees with him, for instance about free will in the bible. He also uses fine tuning as an argument which fails as soon as one realizes that the majority of the universe is inimical for humans, to the point that our own sun can give us cancer.
Yep, I did a lot of research when losing my faith, in order to try to keep it and that didn’t work. I thought that the bible was true. That is what I was taught. Then I read it and found that it wasn’t true. It does not surprising me that you would claim that objections fall flat but then will not demonstrate why you think that. It’s very easy to make a claim and then not support it.
Yep, if you could answer my objections, I would indeed at the very least consider committing my life to Jesus . I prayed to him myself for answers. So, was this a true offer or an excuse? I’ve read many Christian apologists. I’ve seen lots of attempts at answers. Show that your bible is true and that your god supports your interpretation of it. My intellectual satisfaction requires logic, evidence, and the consideration of correlation and causation. If you’d like to take a attempt at one of my objections, that would be fine.
I’ve committed to a someone for 30 years. I don’t commit to things that have no evidence for them. I also don’t commit to things that are written to do things I wouldn’t accept in a human being.
Many Christians will claim that non-christians don’t want to be held responsible to this god. I have to ask, which god?
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To address the objections in your previous comments:
Tyre – I’ve never looked much into this. My first Google search came up with this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ancient.eu/amp/1-503/ which shows the fall of Tyre. There were other articles I liked more but the one I pasted was the most thorough.
Worldwide flood – Quick, easy-read article: https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/global/worldwide-flood-evidence/
Canaanites destroyed in Deut – I thought this was a great blog regarding this passage: https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2019/violence-against-the-canaanites-in-deuteronomy-and-joshua-reconsidered
Pi = 3 – I would argue here that the Bible is not inaccurate but imprecise. You have to round pi at some point.
Sky is solid with lights on it – I did a quick Google search and a verse didn’t show that has this… do you have the Biblical reference?
Earth is like clay under a seal – Not that I fully understand this verse, but I do know that seals are not completely flat when pressed – there are designs and grooves. The next part of the verse says “its features stand out like a garment.” There is a lot of talk about the dawn and the wicked becoming broken. Almost like everything will be revealed (like a design is revealed in clay when a seal is stamped). I don’t believe this is referring to the earth being flat.
Hail and snow in storehouses – I really liked how a couple of these commentaries explained this passage; better than what I can do. https://www.studylight.org/commentary/job/38-22.html
2 Sam 7 : Jews won’t be disturbed – God’s covenant with David. I would like to look more into this passage, but first glance, it was a promise to David that He did fulfill… for a time. But David’s sons stopped wanting to follow the Lord and His statutes so the covenant was broken.
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The bible claims, via the character of this god, that no one will ever be able to find Tyre again. This is obviously not true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon
I know it’s hard to accept that Christians will lie to each other but that is exactly what Answers in Genesis does. There are sea fossils on mountains because of continental collision and uplift. The Himalayas are still rising from the subcontinent of India colliding with the continent of Asia. Chalk beds are deposited over millions of years from the microscopic skeletons of diatoms, etc. They can’t be deposited quickly or in flood conditions as described in the bible. The Redwall Limestone is a series of layers, with different consistencies. Floods don’t lay down thin layers, they lay down one layer that is graded from coarse to fine, not many layers each graded coarse to fine. Physics doesn’t allow that.
Again, chalk doesn’t come from rapid deposition, so the claims about the chalk beds being wide spread because of rapid deposition is a lie. The Coconino sandstone is a wind born deposit, like the Sahara, and we can see the ripples in it, so again no flood, and more lies from creationists. Unconformities show that the flood is nonsense since a layer has to exist prior to it being eroded to an unconformity and floods don’t leave things like dessication cracks on layers. Floods don’t put down many layers at once, see above. You can do your own experiment and put a bunch of different types of sediment in a box and shake it. You won’t see layers at all, just one big deposit graded from coarse at the bottom to fine at the top.
I know you won’t, but this is a very good video on how the lies of creationists can be seen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ElhX38w3Q&t=70s
a. There is no evidence that the Canaanites were destroyed at all, but the bible claims that they were. Your link is certainly a classic apologetic to avoid a god that is genocidal: genocide by the UN: Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
This is quite a statement “Canaanites are not to be killed because of their ethnic (non-Israelite) identity, but must be fought only if they resist YHWH’s plans.” Aka they must be fought if they dare to defend themselves and their land, which is to be taken by the Israelites per this god. The Canaanite religion was no more “cult” than the religion of the Israelites, but the author of your link does his best to try to poison the well. However, I thank you for this part of the apology “According to Josh. 11:20, the theological reason behind the Canaanites’ choice to engage Israel in battle lies in YHWH’s hardening of their hearts.” So much for free will, eh?
This is genocide: “’’ 10 “When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. 11 And if it responds to you peaceably and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. 12 But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword, 14 but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you. 15 Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. 16 But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17 but you shall devote them to complete destruction,[a] the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded, 18 that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the LORD your God.” Deuteronomy 20
Nope, one never *has* to round pi. If one rounds it, then a circle is never completed. Formulas work that way. That’s why it is called pi and not “3”.
Genesis 1 has that the stars are placed in the firmament, which as you can tell, related to the term firm, which is a descriptor for a solid object. The Hebrew is raquia, and that is related to the term of beating out a bowl of metal. You can see more about this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament We also have the bible, in Revelation, claiming that the stars can fall onto the earth. That can’t happen if stars are what stars really are, gigantic balls of fusing gas.
Yep, seals have some relief, and again, that’s just like how Christians presented the earth, flat with mountains on it (see the wiki article above). It’s not hard to understand the verse: ““Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone7 when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings[a] shouted for joy?8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb?—9 when I made the clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band,10 and prescribed bounds for it, and set bars and doors,
11 and said, ‘Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stopped’?12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place,13 so that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?14 It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed[b] like a garment. – Job 38 NRSV This is your god bragging and trying to browbeat Job for daring to question it. This god claims it created the earth, and that the earth has foundations, and a cornerstone. “It” e.g the earth, is changed like clay under a seal, which is flat with some 3-d parts. It is not a sphere. The authors of the bible thought that just by going up on a high mountain one could see all of earth (when Satan is chatting with Jesus), but that only works with a flat earth.
Your link about the hail and snow is the usual attempt to claim that the ancients knew more than they did. We have claims from people in the 1800s or earlier trying to make believe that ancient people didn’t literally believe in such things as the bible claims. The ancients were peoples who believed in nonsense like dragons too.
David’s one son was killed as a child by your god, so no change to “stop” wanting to follow this god or its laws. As for the promise this god made, its supposedly from an omniscient being, right? And how does an omniscient being not know that David’s descendants
will fail? “Thus says the LORD of hosts: I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep to be prince over my people Israel; 9 and I have been with you wherever you went, and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make for you a great name, like the name of the great ones of the earth. 10 And I will appoint a place for my people Israel and will plant them, so that they may live in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and evildoers shall afflict them no more, as formerly, 11 from the time that I appointed judges over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. Moreover the LORD declares to you that the LORD will make you a house. 12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. When he commits iniquity, I will punish him with a rod such as mortals use, with blows inflicted by human beings. 15 But I will not take[b] my steadfast love from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me;[c] your throne shall be established forever. 17 In accordance with all these words and with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.”
This god failed in its claim of “forever”.
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004K6U8FC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_Y8ZcEbT322BV8
I don’t recall reading Moreland’s views on freewill so I can neither agree nor disagree. Sucks if he sucks cause I thought he was good 🤷♀️😅 That being the case, if you were going to purchase any book based on my suggestion, it would be Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem 👍 But that is also quite a bit more $$ (of course 🙄 lol).
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your link to amazon seems to be to somethign that isn’t in print? In that there is no more evidence for your god than any other god, I find belief in gods to be entirely blind faith and not an intelligent commitment.
I’ve read some of Grudem’s work. He’s a Calvinist so he disagrees with quite a few types of Christianity. Like ever Christian, he is sure that his version is the only true one, and claims it is “biblical” just like everyone else. He’s also a supported of Trump, which always bemuses me when a Christian decides to ignore their bible for power. To follow a liar, a cheat, and adulterer, a supporter of those who persecute their own people, etc, goes against what the bible says about leaders and what Christians are supposed to do. The lesser of two evils isn’t a biblical idea. I’m not impressed with his claims because he doesn’t follow them himself.
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I am certainly not a scientist, and I will say that I was not impressed with the “proof” I found for a worldwide flood. Not that “proof” against the flood was anything worth bragging about either 🤷♀️
You mentioned no one *has* to round pi… but I’ve always understood pi to be an indefinite series of random numbers, which is why we typically round to 3.14. So, I still feel like you have to round pi at some point. But maybe you have finished writing out pi?
Good ‘ole Tyre, huh? The end of Isaiah 23 makes it sound like Tyre will be restored at the end of 70 years so if they’re still kickin’ then it seems the prophecy was fulfilled.
Is our debate about the Cannanites changing to be about God’s decree on their destruction rather than if they were destroyed?
I liked the hail and snow links because it talked about the storehouses being similar to that of treasuries of weaponry. I think it also mentioned how the Bible uses language that the intended audience (Job) will understand. I don’t think God meant actual storehouses in the sky, rather that He is ultimately in control of the weather and used the analogy to meet Job’s comprehension.
The death of David’s first son with Bathsheba was pretty cray… you don’t just have adultery but you also have her innocent husband murdered on a battlefield where David should have been fighting alongside his men. But God did establish the kingdom with David and Bathsheba’s second son, Solomon… then Solomon took hundreds of wives from all cultures, turning his heart from God 😕
I’ve not heard nor seen near the amount of evidence for any other god. Which one(s) are you referring to that could compete with the Biblical God?
Grudem is definitely a Calvinist, that is for sure. I definitely lean toward that way of thinking as well, though I have joked I’m a “Paul-ist” because I think the apostle Paul makes quite the argument for the Calvinistic viewpoint. I am unaware of Grudem’s political views. I know he wrote a book on politics but I haven’t had time to read it.
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The evidence against a magical flood is quite worth bragging about since it shows how physics and chemistry work. It’s reality. Every bit of evidence shows that the magic flood never happened, and that physics and chemistry have always worked on this planet the way they do now. I can go into detail since I’m a geologist. Another bit of evidence that there was no magic flood at any time during earth’s history is that we have deposits of salt. That doesn’t happen with a flood as claimed in the bible. Salt deposits take deposition and drying.
No one *has* to round pi but if they do, their calculations will be off. And your attempt to be snarky isn’t helping your argument. If I have the formula C=dπ, I can calculate the circumference of a circle. If my diameter is 5 inches then we have 5 time pi which gets a circumference of 15.70796, and yes one can keep going with the numbers until they make no noticeable difference but there will always be a gap, infinitesimal as it might get (thing of Zeno’s paradox). However, if we stop with 3.14, then the answer would be 15.7 inches. If we go with 5 feet, then we get 15.7 feet rather than 15.70796 feet. If we go to 500 feet, then we get 1570.796 feet and a gap of over 9 inches if we round to 3.14
I’m not talking about Isaiah 23. “19 For thus says the Lord GOD: When I make you a city laid waste, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you, and the great waters cover you, 20 then I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of long ago, and I will make you live in the world below, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place[e] in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more; though sought for, you will never be found again, says the Lord GOD.” Ezekiel 26 This god was going to send Nebuchadnezzar against Tyre and the above was supposed to happen. It didn’t. A common Christian excuse is that the people on Tyre went to the part of Tyre on an island, but again, we still know where all of Tyre is thanks to archaeology. Your god, like its inventors, never conceived of archaeology.
“Is our debate about the Cannanites changing to be about God’s decree on their destruction rather than if they were destroyed?”
I’m not sure what you are asking here. Clarify?
Do you think your god uses hail and snow as weaponry? If your god is limited by humans, it isn’t much of a god. This god doesn’t have to use words that Job would understand since this god could explain to him. It doesn’t. Your god’s knowledge is the same as those writing about it.
Wow, the death of a child is “pretty cray” to you. Hmmm. Do you think it is just or fair to kill a child for the actions of another? Do you think it is right to take away the free will of another? The story shows your god failing again with choosing his representatives. So much for omniscience and omnipotence. You might want to read about what bible scholars think of this story of so many concubines. They think it is not true and written as a just so story to excuse the failure and splitting of the kingdom of Solomon. The Wikipedia entry on Solomon has lots of info and references, including the fact that we have little evidence of Solomon actually existing, especially as described in the bible.
You say “I’ve not heard nor seen near the amount of evidence for any other god.” What evidence do you think you have for your god? There is no archaeological evidence for any of the essential events in the bible. We have the bible, but it is claims, not evidence for itself. We have no contemporary reports of the essential events of the bible. We have reports of what Christians and Jews believed but again, nothing that shows evidence for your god. We also have holy books of other religions about their gods, The Book of the Dead for the Egyptian gods, the Vedas for the hindu gods, the qu’ran, the Pali Cannon for a sect of Buddhism, the Zend-avesta for Zoroasterianism, etc. We have their temples, and references to real people and real locations. Nothing different than what you have. Do you believe in those gods then?
I was a Presbyterian so I know Calvinism, and I agree that Paul says Calvinism is right. I find it rather unpleasant because it depends on a “chosen” people, requires perfecting decent people being damned to eternal torture. I think many Christians are really Paulists since they go with what Paul is written to have said over what JC written to have said. For all of the claims Christians don’t disagree, they do, and we have no way of knowing which, if any of you, is right.
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